Pit Of Oblivion

hmm...other than the background being white, i wonder what other reason there coul dbe for painting the sheep black...

maybe the black sheep represent the children feeling like outcast trapped in a world that is hard to escape, praying for that one opportunity where they see the light and can escape

i keep trying to match up the printing on the title of the piece with the printing of the sheeps' names. does anyone else think that someone put the title in afterward? they don't seem to match, but then again, i can't find an "o" that isn't over-embellished (as the "o" on "Jo" is). for some reason, i get tripped out when i see all upper case letters and then see a lower case "b." it must be the poseur detective in me.

If indeed, there's any symbology behind this, then it's very sinister image. ie: What could the pit symbolize? Submission to evils such as suicide? Self harm? I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but if the patients were as disturbed as is to be believed, then.....

The picture drawn is done a huge pull down window shade. Some were hung on the windows in Devon Hall. This building was known for Music & Art Therapy.
Motts, Your pictures are amazing! They capture the definate feeling that surrounds Pennhurst.

Looks like Jean got eaten.

How very sad. I think the pit of oblivion=depression

Poor Jean!
What about the people ON the pit? Are they stuck between oblivion and escape? WTF

This picture is incredibly disturbing,pit of oblivion must be Pennhurst itself...

Disturbing but yet, if you put it in the sunday school of a fundamentalist church, would it be out of place??

Out of all the pictures I have looked at on this site over the few hours, this is the one that disturbs me the most. The thought of some small child knowing that their friends didnt "make" it, just makes me want to cry.

It's disturbing but it definitely has some emotion behind it.That picture does more to a persons mind than a thousand horror movies could.

I have to agree with Garth, the title was addd later as the handwriting doesnt match. (Mott I copid it to my desktop to enlarge, deleted after i "analized" it)
Points:
title: the i is not dotted as in the name marcia
the N doesnt match either
Very creepy in either case.....

I just noticed something very creepy!If you look right next to the sheep underneath the sheep named Jo going up the rainbow(can't make that ones name out)you will notice a smudge mark that if you look close resembles an evil spectre or hag looming over it.Maybe that wasn't done on purpose or maybe some other forces are at work in this place,wouldn't surprise me given the history and the malevolence of this work of art.

dude this would make a wicked album cover.

Haha rediculous comments people...Actually this was done by a TA class in 1983, my mother, black sheep MARCIA was in it..They did a reflection painting at the end of their class to represent them because they were going to be banners that were hung up in the class..Her group had the nickname "Black Sheep" unlike the other groups they werent too enthusiastic about painting it so they did it as a joke...I have pictures of the class, and the names of the people on the back of it as proof...so i laugh at all of you who thought it symbolized depression and shame..xVilleValox@yahoo.com

Well then why was it in Pennhurst and why is it called Pit of Oblivion?Obviously even if she did make it the alligators eating the sheep had some symbolism and I don't think it was the happy kind.By the way know it all it's spelled ridiculous.

Dude you are putting way too much thought into a joke. It's been awhile but probably the alligators were our idiot instructors and after enduring a week or two of "warm fuzzies" we felt like they were trying to eat us alive with too much positivity. That's all. Haven't got a clue as to who came up with the title. Probably felt like it made no sense like the stupid class. Hope I spel.led everything correctly

I also worked at Pennhurst and remember this TA class and poster. I also know Marcia very well. The sheep were named after the staff that attended the class, not the "residents". And in agreement with her,the class was stupid as was the instructor. Orchid Lunar--I've read several of your comments throughout this Pennhurst tour, and you are WAY OFF on your assumptions. Calm down. Pennhurst was NOT the horrid place that it's being portrayed.

They tried to say it wasn't a horrid place all throughout the lawsuit but I've seen photos that say different and read accounts.I don't think you are lying,I just think maybe you didn't see everything that went on.

funny how everyone who worked at pennhurst says the same thing........it wasnt that bad....only difference between what they say and what the patients say are they were getting a paycheck to keep them happy, what about the patients they never saw their money........there are two sides to every story ...... and in this one i believe the patients not the employees

You are absolutely right. There are 2 sides to every story and one side of the story has sadly been misrepresented. The closing of Pennhurst was all about politics. The State of Pa no longer wanted to be in the business of caring for the mentally retarded. These lawsuits were absurd and could have been won by the state if they chose to put the money into fighting them They took a way out which was costly but not as costly as to continue to run large institutions. There is much you do not know about working in understaffed institutions. Unfortunately the staff never got to defend themselves against accusations that simply were not true. Reporters can write what they want, put their own slant on things...this is nothing new. This was the start of sensationalism journalism. The reason why many people who worked at Pennhurst say it wasn't that bad is because it wasn't. The people that worked there were not ogres ready to punce on poor defensless people. If you believe that you are sadly misinformed.

First, Im curious, what was the "TA" class?
I saw the news expose' - Suffer the Children - done about Pennhurst , I tend to think conditions could have been better much better in there. I do agree on the short handed staff issue and can understand how the state workes. I worked for the state in a State Hospital for over 20 years and they did want out of the Hospital Business for sure, but, I believe there were abuses going on in Pennhurst whether they were intentional or not - I do not know.....
Very sad picture no matter what the circumstances....

Blacksheep Marcia can defend this place all she wants but a person doesn't have to have been there to see the wretched conditions in this place.I've seen photos used in the trial on a big site devoted just to Pennhurst and photos do not lie.I am not condemning all the staff that worked at Pennhurst,I am sure some were good people that genuinely cared for the welfare of the patients but I have no doubt that some were brutal sadists.I read an account written by a patient who stayed in Pennhurst for years about the horrors of that place.Why would this person make something like that up?

This is the last time I'm going to defend my position Orchard Lunar, because you obviously know everything. I don't know why this ex resident wrote what he wrote. He is retarded right? Maybe he was influenced to write what he did. Maybe it was all true, I honestly do not know. I'd like to know the name of the site with these terrible pictures. Pictures don't lie but captions sometimes do. I'd like to see what's got you so upset though. I'd like to remind you that you were making some bizaar comments about this picture, so sure some poor ex resident painted it. So pictures can be misleading.

He was retarded so he was "influenced"to write what he did about the place.Thats an extremely condescending view Marcia.None of it seemed influenced to me.You can see what we all know of Pennhurst here.http://www.elpeecho.com/pennhurst/pennhurst.htm

Ok , I took a look at the pictures , didn't find them all that disturbing and also looked at the newsreel , although I could barely make anything out. I worked at Pennhurst from 1975 until 1986 and although some of the pictures were what Pennhurst was like when I started it was not like that when I was layed off. Renovations had occurred and large sleeping areas were now cubicles with usually 2 to a cubby. Better furniture,etc. Look, I'm not saying Pennhurst was an ideal place to be and at times probably was a hell hole but what I am saying is that when Pennhurst closed it was nothing like these pictures that get everyone so upset. It changed with the times just like everything else. Anyway I'm done now. Believe what you want.

Then why when somebody who does have first hand knowlege of what it was like there is so easily dismissed? Suffer the children ....right away in the beginning you are subtly mislead into believing that 2000+ "children" resided there. When I hear that I immediately have a picture of little kids running around.
Yeah they were somebodies children even though they were adults but the statement is misleading none the less.

I Think this poster was made by a group of children and that is why the writing does not match. Most of the sheep do not match either. Nor the writing inside the sheep.

I was with jen on this one, interpretation-wise, until I read the subsequent submissions. I suffered from depression for years, and the picture has a kind of bleak darkness to it which was uncomfortably familiar. It does have the positive aspect that some/most of the black sheep are escaping... that's much less familiar. Maybe the blackness of the sheep wasn't a reflection of guilt after all. Good picture though!

Mr Motts, thanks for your well-written, as well as magnificently photographed site, by the way. A rare combination on the Internet.

I think the lower case 'b' was only to make it stand out.

If only the original artist of this poster knew it would be photographed and discussed online some day.

ARGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! HELLO, can't you people read?

Right!!! My excuse is I didn't read the older messages. Only replied to a current one. LOL

I don't think Marcia (or anyone else) was commenting about you, m'dear Puddleboy; I think we are all frustrated about people getting into the "bathos" mode without checking out how related it is to reality. As noted a billion times hence; yes, bad, bad things happened there and many, many other places (and still do to this day, maybe even in the house next to you - gasp!), but some people seem to want to use that as an excuse to take everything associated with Pennhurst and self-righteously "emotionally bleed" all over the place. I think some folks get their kicks from being shocked and outraged (but only at a safe distance, mind you), which disturbs me almost as much as the original problems that occurred.

My belief is that if people are willing to DO something about it they can "bleed" all they want, but if not, most of us would prefer that they politely shut the hell up and quit making judgments without all the facts.

But wait - one day I'll tell y'all how I REALLY feel about this. ;-)

It's an amazing picture, whatever its origins. No wonder some initial viewers don't wade through 40-odd comments before making their own remarks. To be honest, I would, and did, but that's just me. Never mind. They've seen it.

Thank-you, thank-you Lynn. Some one finally gets it. I'd almost given up hope. Your last comment scares me though.

You don't want to hear how I really feel about things? :-)

Sure, go ahead. You seem reasonably sane...can't be all that outrageous.

I meant which comment scared you?

As to how sane I am, I believe we have a number of competing opinions on that at the moment. :-)

Be careful, BlackSheep Marcia, Lynne might try to analyze YOU.

Good Luck trying to analyze me. It was the last comment.

You guys can go back and forth all you want about how this place was great/awful but I say to those who claim it wasn't, would YOU volunteer to stay there as a random patient when it was in operation? Hell no you wouldn't. These places are not shiny happy establishments and i think we all know that! Give me a break!

Gosh. I thought we had already covered this territory. I've worked in 5 different places similar to this and there are good ones and there are bad ones and their quality revolves totally and exclusively around how much money the community votes to let a facility have. They give no money, the facilities don't do such a hot job. They give a lot of money, the facilities do a great job. But even without money some of the staff in these places have made it a true home and have kept many of these very fragile folks alive and happy, so please don't automatically assume that every single place was a snake pit and every single client went through hell, because that's just not true. Put off the black-and-white viewpoint and come visit us sometime, because "we" are still out there. I work in one of "these places" and I can tell you a whole lot about the good and bad. Get out there and volunteer along side us and push your congresspeople for increased taxes for folks with handicaps; then we'll be happy to listen after you've experienced the good and the bad.

Thank -you Lynn. Carry on the fight brave woman. I gave up arguing with the know -it-alls. I would never had guessed that 20+ years after this silly window shade was painted that such narrowmindedness (is that actually 1 word) would still be rampant. Mona Lisa are you related to Orchard Lunar because your comments are so similiar. She seems to have slithered off somewhere probably annoying some other message board. Maybe you should join her.
And hey Lynn.....you do know alot.. Plus you have the experience of actually working in different places. I would consider the opinion of someone with first hand knowledge over any magazine,TV. or newspaper article anyday. Rant on all you want.Maybe one of these empty heads will finally get it. I doubt it but maybe..........

Oops......it's Orchid Lunar not Orchard. Silly me!

http://pub27.bravenet.com/forum/2317178576

A little gift for each of you. From me

Well, that certainly is disturbing.
Poor Jean :(

Man you people really know how to suck the fun out of art. Its ok to make up your own scenario when looking at a photo. This is not the place for political discussions. Take it elsewhere.

Okay... let me get this straight... a woman who worked at Pennhurst is saying the people who worked at Pennhurst weren't all bad, and complaining that people don't believe her? Forgive me for being the one to point it out, but hers is not an unbiased perspective!

Forgive me, Marcia. I'm not accusing you of being a liar, just pointing out that your own testimony about yourself is by definition biased, and that any reasonable person would look for corroboration before believing the words of a person with a vested interest. It doesn't take a genius to know that people paint themselves in the best possible light.

Why are you so shocked that people don't accept your testimony (which, due to the wonders of internet anonymity, could be coming from anyone) without question? And do you really have to ask why people think someone who worked there might not be the best source of information about what the people who worked there were like?

Marcia, my friend - ignore the above comment, darlin'. Sometimes people like to think that everyone else is horrible but themselves. I think it's time that you and I just give up on trying to educate people who are happy to believe the worst about others. Sad to have to come to this point, isn't it? Branded a liar and untrustworthy merely because of the place you worked. Almost seems undemocratic somehow, doesn't it?

So maybe we all need to just walk out of the institutions right now and let the criticizers and labellers and name callers come and do our jobs at the pay that is given and with the mandatory overtime hours attached. They'd be back here in 24 hours (if they could last that long and/or not kill off our fragile people with their lack of knowledge about how to do this very specialized job) and they would be begging us to come back. Luckily for them (and for the folks we work with!), that will never happen. So let 'em be righteous, let 'em throw stones, let 'em not call you a liar "directly", just by ugly insinuation. I say the hell with 'em.

But one day I'll tell you how I REALLY feel. :-)

Aww come one Lynne, we all know that the people who know most about the field are those who don't actually do anything in it! ;) It's like, I work in insurance, so of course MY view of what happens here is wrong because I actually see it.

To Lynne, Marcia, and everyone else in this field: Most of us realize that you are trying your best to do what can be done, and we don't think you're abusive. There are a few whack-jobs who won't believe the truth when it's right in their faces. Like Lynne said, the hell with 'em. They're too stupid to matter... :D

Just as long as none of you people ever sit on a jury, I'm happy...

I specifically said that I wasn't calling Marcia a liar, merely pointing out that people's testimony on their own behalf isn't unbiased. That has nothing to do with where Marcia works, what field she works in, or anything else specific to Marcia. It's very simple: people don't ordinarily admit to wrongdoing, so if someone is accused of wrongdoing, their claim that it didn't happen does not prove that it didn't happen. That's called he said/she said, and even a small child knows better than to put stock in it. But, well, whatever they taught in the school you went to, it sure wasn't logic! Lord save me.

Lynne, why so defensive? You may be an expert on the treatment of the mentally ill, but setting yourself up as an expert on abuse seems misguided to me. I would hope that you are not an expert when it comes to abuse within the system at all.

By the way, since the last time I posted, I've read the autobiography of the gentleman Marcia is accusing of "having been influenced" to say bad things about Pennhurst merely because he's retarded. Shame on her. He's the very last person to be influenced or controlled by anybody; he's a past president and a founding member of Speaking for Ourselves, a disability advocacy group run by the disabled for the disabled. His every word is laden with dignity. But don't take my word for it, go read it, let the man speak for himself.

Allie Cat,

Pull in the claws - you are right on the edge of flaming some good people because you are a little full of yourself right now. You are doing an awful lot of judging of others without having any idea of what you are talking about. Most of us don't mind a healthy discussion about the ills of the system, given that most outsiders don't have the first clue or interest in the good things that have happened (which shows their own state of mind rather than being reflective of the system). But the point at which you start making public judgments about others merely because of the place they worked makes you as dangerous as people who actually do engage in abuse, because you have prejudged without any facts, and that is equally wrong. You have smeared some good people whose only "sin" was choosing to take care of people who have problems.

Once you have cleaned up the child care system you work for we will be happy to listen to the negative information you want to throw at us. I would say, however, that you may want to consider another job, because if all you are looking for is abuse, you will find it, whether it is there or not. People with that viewpoint scare me every bit as much as the people who engage in abuse. "Witch trials," we used to call them. All I have to do is think that someone is abusive and magically they are.

So we damn and fire all the facility caretakers for the terrible sin of having worked at a facility. Then there are no staff, so we hire pure and self-righteous people who often turn out to be ill-suited to work with this population and guess what? The rate of true abuse rises because the first group of staff actually knew how to deal with all the incredibly difficult scenarios that attach themselves to people who are fragile or who have illnesses of any sort.

You worry about me being in charge of abuse? Sorry, that's what I do and I am very good at it, which is why I feel I can comment about what happens in this field. What would worry me is having you come work a few shifts where I work. Of course, like others, if you made it through the initial criminal background screening you would still need 6 weeks of pre-service training and a minimum of a month being under the wing of a seasoned staff before you could work with my folks. Most people don't have that sort of patience to hang in there that long, especially not the sort of people who like to make snap judgments about things with which they are unfamiliar.

Some of the things you have said are true, but it's difficult to respond to someone who throws rotten garbage along with the mix. If you want to discuss issues, please disentangle them from your accusations. You sound like someone from a lynch mob who has prejudged the outcome and is rearranging the facts to fit the situation.

I have said all along that there have been and are problems with the system, some of them atrocious. But I have also tried to point out which of the supposed atrocities DIDN'T actually occur but were the product of feverish imaginations, why the REAL problems occurred, why we shouldn't prejudge the staff (many of whom kept alive some very fragile people or who championed people with some pretty horrendous problems), and what could be done to fix the problems of the system.

My guess - your favorite colors are black and white.

***Gives Lynne a standing ovation.......(the heck with it) throws underwear....
Presents Lynne with the Golden Cumezekyame Award***

Lynne, one of your points brings to mind the secondary study of Rosenhan's experiment...staff of a teaching and research hospital, which was aware of the first study, was falsely informed that during the next three months one or more pseudo patients would attempt to be admitted into their hospital. Of course, they identified some people as being Rosenhan's pseudo patients...the thing is, Rosenhan didn't send ANY pseudo patients!

Ergo, if you're looking for something you're going to find it whether or not it's really there. That's when you have to be careful. When working in the advocacy career you have to be sure you have the ability to distinguish the facts as to how what you perceive those facts to mean. It becomes very dangerous if you aren't able to do that.

Oh, and for those of you who don't know about Rosenhan's experiment you can visit this site and read up on the primary study.

http://www.garysturt.f...e.co.uk/rosenhan.htm

That's my Bri! :-)

Yes, I hate to admit my age here, but the Rosenhan study came out while I was in my first year as an undergraduate, and the reverberations were felt widely throughout the field. It was a brilliant study and remains one of the most powerful pieces of work I have ever read. Unfortunately, sometimes people somehow make it into the field without knowing about this incredibly key study.

We had something happen recently in the field (OK, recently to ME - 15 to 20 years ago is a lifetime for many of y'all ) where everyone was being taught that if you couldn't remember being sexually abused by your family, it meant you were obviously sexually abused by your family (but it was too traumatic for you to remember). A lot of well-meaning advocates and mental health personnel caused irreparable harm with that one until the very courageous researcher, Dr. Elizabeth Loftus, published her studies on the fallibility of human memory and the power of suggestion. She and others in the field discussed looking at events without preconception and entering a situation without a preconceived bias, as that skews your results in the manner you expect to see. Ironically, although this has always been the basis of the scientific method, far too many people in the mental health field don't like to be encumbered by the "cold sterile clinical" approach of being neutral until you get all the facts. Pity, isn't it?

When I assist with investigations now (and in the past), the cardinal rule you enter with is NOT to make any assumptions and NOT to lead people. It is remarkably easy to lead people (especially vulnerable people) into saying what they think you want to hear, so you have to be deadly accurate in your interviewing techniques or someone who is innocent will end up wrongly accused or someone who is guilty will walk away free.

If you assume that everyone is an abuser the research is out there (for anyone who cares to look for it) that you will find it everywhere. Conversely, if you don't believe it happens you can't find it, even with piles of evidence staring you in the face.

In my current job as a risk management liaison we spend lots (and lots and lots and lots) of time looking at patterns of injuries - time of day, type of injury, number of injuries, concomitant medical issues, history of injuries - and after a while it is not that hard to see some things that some folks would automatically assume was abuse actually turning out not to be abuse, or vice versa.

Ironically, we are usually jumped more by the people we investigate, because the onus always has to be on protecting the clients. Often staff feel as if an automatic assumption of guilt is made if they are investigated, but the process in all state institutions at this point is that we have to investigate all injuries or unusual events - it's as simple as that. Because the consequences of accusing someone of abuse are also so major, we walk a tight rope of making sure that accusations are not made without a LOT of attempts at getting it right.

If you accuse the wrong person of abuse you sometimes do more damage to the client, who may know full well that this person didn't hurt them, but they lose the relationship they had with this person through an improper accusation. You also may lose a staff person who was the best thing ever to come along for a lot of folks. However, we always have to go with protecting the clients first.

That does not occur when we assume they are abusing people without checking it out first, and it's an insult to staff everywhere.

One additional point that I have to keep coming back to is this - why do we like to heap scorn and ridicule on the people who did what they did with no money and no resources and some of them in frustration became abusive - and we don't heap scorn on ourselves for not demanding better conditions for the clients and their staff? It is because it is cleaner (and we can feel holier) if we act like abuse is solely an internal, personal characteristic rather a reflection of how systems go wrong and how it degrades the people who have to work under these conditions, as well as how society looks at the people who often end up in institutions as being less than human.

I still say that those who act outraged about abuse in institutions need to look around first, because abuse happens everywhere. There are many, many, many of us right now whose entire lives are dedicated to keeping these folks safe. Please go police your own community before you heap your scorn on those of us who actually are doing something about it.

I don't know how some people don't know about the Rosenhan study! I spent long hours talking to my Psych prof. about it and about Dr. Elizabeth Loftus' studies. It's really important to look at events without any preconception and enter a situation without a preconceived bias. I was talking to my advisor and my Social Work professors about the importance of this and I already know that there may be times when I'll feel a certain bias, such as, in child abuse cases. But the thing is I know that and I can detach myself from what I may think/feel it to be because it's an entirely different situation...in fact, you have to look at everything like that! You can never assume! That's what does the most damage to the person you're trying to help, and I can't believe how many "advocates" out there aren't able to pull off this seperation. I'm sure it may be hard, but you really have to make a conscious effort to do so. If you don't you're not really an advocate.

Once again, I applaud Lynne for eloquently speaking for those who dedicate thier lives to helping others!

8-)

Lynne,
Your comment about how 15 - 20 years ago if you couldn't remember being abused by your family, it means that you were abused by your family, is that related to what i remember around the same time period about some unreputable psychiatrists implanting false memory's in patients?

Hmm.. I spelled my own name wrong.

Lynne is da "person" tho, no matter how I spell my name.

psychadellic one - I don't think anyone was intentionally implanting false memories; it's just that most of us didn't realize how much impact we could have on another person through suggestability and our own personal beliefs. However, if "therapists" are still doing this without using the results of the Loftus studies I would question their techniques, results, and ethics. A lot of people lost their licenses and credibility with that whole fiasco, and what's much worse, an awful lot of people were horribly traumatized by this and many family members were imprisoned by false accusations. Very sad.

LST69 - you are a doll, no matter how you spell your name. :-)

Lynne,
I'm sure you are a good person who cares very much about the mentally and physically handicapped. It's quite obvious that you are on some type of crusade to get rid of the negative stigma surrounding mental health care, and thats good. Many people don't get the help they need because of all the negative images attached to being "crazy" so to speak. I am all for viewing things as they are. However, I was under the impression that this web site was devoted to the photography of urban decay. This is art. The above picture, whether or not it was just a joke or whatever, is still a strong image, and "the pit of oblivion" fits perfectly as a description of depression as well as a description of institutiional life, whether it be in a mental hospital or a prison. Being locked up is no fun.

Why was Mona Lisa smiling? Why did Paul McCartney write "Yesterday"? I don't nor want to know why. I make my own explanations.

When you have pictures of rotting structures in front of you, are you going to think of the helpful doctor and the smiling nurse, or the "Nurse Ratchetts" of the world? It would be like trying to have a wedding in a cemetary. Im sorry to ramble on, but I feel like Motts is trying to show some of the beauty in decay and death, and, in a way he is helping to "de-myth" these places, but everyone wants to turn it into a politcal issue. The problem is that this isnt the place. We're all just looking at some beautiful pictures.

Danny~

You are correct, this site is about art. It's about the awesome photography of some of the most fascinating places.

However, when you find garbage posted about how person Y went into A building and did Z with their friends... Or other garbage where a trash incinerator was used to cremate unclaimed bodies....
The examples could continue.

You want to reeducate the mislead. Not because anyone of us want to be preachy about Mental Health Care or any other Health Care in that matter.
You want them to understand that these places were indeed horrific in the past for some people, as well as a safe haven for others.

Unfortunately, when working to get points across, express memories of the people who lived and worked in these buildings.
There are people who come around
and call them liars, and try to tell everyone else on here that they are right, and those of us who might know better are dead wrong.

We don't try to romanticize these places.

But what would you do if you saw a rust stain on the wall(coming from a piece of metal on the door), and someone insists that it's blood, and you are in the medical field and know darn well what blood looks like, at various ages, because you have dealt with it.
You would want to correct them, yes?
Or would you let them perpetuate the horror stories that society won't let die?

Just curious.

I know what you're saying, entirely. I am very much a skeptic when it comes to most everything. I fully support all sciences, and despite the mistakes of the past, I believe that science will prevail. However, the fact is, horror stories will always be with us, and I say good. Looking at a rotting insane asylum is scary, because insanity is scary (to those that are "sane") and decay reminds of our own death. Seeing a building that was once teeming with life and is now being eaten away by mold and bacteria is a bit like seeing inside our own coffins. So people get freaked out and they imagine scary things. It doesnt mean the things they post here are true. The above pic is scary if you think of a schizophrenic making it (and only because of the terror of schizophrenia, not because they are harmful) and harmless if you think of bored kids who resent being locked up. It really doesnt matter at all. People will always believe what they want to believe, regardless of the facts. Unfortunately.

Lynne, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Holy cow, I go a way for awhile and look what happens! I'm not even going to respond to the person who has called me a liar. I am long gone from the job of caring for the retarded. I've moved on . Nothing the unbelievers can say is going to hurt my feelings. I know what I experienced, along with the hundreds of other people who worked there and one final time IT WASN'T ALL THAT BAD.

This is to Mary . HOW would you feel if you were tied to a bed with out any thing on? like i sean in the pics that were in court. the pics were real (RIGHT) If it wasn.t so bad how did they get those pic? I,m not trying to get smart I JUST DON,T UNDERSTAND . EMAIL ME PLEASE

i have actually seen that drawing in real life... along with many others. it truly is ... the sadness...

sorry for my last post i ment MARCIA HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE TIED TO A BED WITH OUT ANY THING ON? I SAW THE PIC THEY USED IN COURT

Are you offering? Cause I know a lot of people who would like that... Just sayin...

25 years ago I might have enjoyed that. Lighten up. Yes, yes a terrible thing and I'm sure that person was restrained to a bed just for the fun of it by the horrible people who worked there. You're absolutely right. I was on some strange hallucinigentic trip for 11 years and everyone was actually sadistic and abused these poor creatures everyday of their pitiful lives. I'm glad I finally came down from that trip and have been enlightened by your insight. I feel better now.

This picture is very disturbing to me also. Everything about it is weird. I think that there was good and bad employees at Pennhurst but I would have to disagree when people say that it was a picture painted wrong in the court system. From reading stories that people wrote who were patients there and reading the many reports written by the employees I am sure and would stand by my words that Pennhurst was a horrible dreadful place for the people that HAD to live there or were PUT there.

I'm waving my magic wand now and Brina is going away.

Miz Marcia, if I can borrow that there magical wand of yours I will be happy to use it in a more physical and direct manner. :-)

Sure can Lynn, I'm sure there are plenty more places it could be put to use. And hey I think it worked here she seems to have disappeared!

I agree with Brina, that drawing does seem kind of strange since it's in a place which housed disturbed children. Why put something like that around unstable children? Pennhurst seemed to house a lot of retarded children and many of them are easily frightened. Why draw something like this for them? It's like rubbing salt into an open wound.
Now I don't want to fight here. I'm sure many good people did work at Pennhurst--however according to actual court transcripts many bad people did to. In fact, most of the good employee's at Pennhurst ended up coming out and filing complaints against the place.
I've been reading Lynne's comments and she really seems to know a lot about mental hospitals and the care of disturbed patients but I really have to wonder if she has seen that old movie footage from back in the 1960s.
How could anyone look at that and defend this place?

Long Island,

Yes, I have seen that film. I have been in this field since 1972, I have worked in multiple settings, both community and institutional, and my doctorate is in mental retardation and clinical child psychology. There is nothing new in that video that I haven't seen in many other videos, many other books & photographs, and, more importantly, in person up close and personal. While working directly with people with various "challenging" conditions I have been attacked physically, called names I had never even heard before, and smeared with excrement and saliva, but I wouldn't stop working in this field for anything in the world because it is my life and these people are my life. I have also been valued and appreciated more than almost any of the rest of you because I have tried to help folks who thrive when they are treated well and appreciated. I don't care what anyone in the entire universe thinks of me personally because I see myself reflected back so positively in the eyes of these people when I walk up to them and know that we each know who the other person TRULY is, all handicaps and diplomas and B.S. aside.

If anyone thinks that I am blindly defending the horrors that were often part and parcel of institutional life, then they haven't read what I have been writing. So rather than bore everyone else who has read this schpiel the 1,000+ times I've written it, let me cover the key points:

1. Society didn't like people who were different and, frankly, still doesn't.
2. Society (the people who vote and pay taxes) wanted these people elsewhere, hidden from sight, and *IN HALF OF THE STATES IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA* the people voted for the involuntary sterilization of these people. This was heard in the U.S. Supreme Court by no less famous and respected a jurist as Oliver Wendell Holmes, and he and the court AGREED.
3. The voting portion of the United States did not elect to give much in the way of money to these places to take care of the people who were sent there.
4. These places were built to take care of a certain number of people.
5. These places were ALL filled WAY past the point of intended capacity, sometimes double their capacity, because the voting people of the United States did not want to look at these people, and in a number of places, tried to enact legislation to kill these people. They usually settled for segregation and involuntarily sterilization, and since they didn't vote for enough money for decent housing, care, and/or medical services, they inadvertently sentenced many of these people to a VERY short life.
6. The wages paid to the people who worked (and still work) in these places has always been abominably low because the people of each state vote for the taxes that constitute the wages that are paid to these people. If you don't value the people who live somewhere, you don't bother to pay a lot to the people who take care of them.
7. The industry of direct care workers across the United States has the highest injury rate of any profession, bar none.
8. Not only were the wages terrible, but the number of staff hired was always inadequate because few people could get by on the meager salaries paid unless they worked overtime or in a second job.
9. Subsequently, mandatory overtime was (and is) atrocious, the turnover rate is an embarrassment to any civilized nation, and the lack of respect that most of you give to the people who were brave enough, tenacious enough, and caring enough to work here would make most people commit suicide, much less go back to work for yet another 16-hour shift.
10. The people who were sent here to live were an amalgamation of all the people who society thought were bad, evil, or just plain "different". Few of them wanted to live in these places, often families didn't want to send their loved ones here, but the truth is, the voting portion of the United States of America did not care enough about these people to pay the taxes it took to keep them at home, and in most places, the voters worked very hard (and continue to work hard TO THIS VERY DAY) to keep "people like this" out of THEIR schools and THEIR neighborhoods.

When I teach the yearly risk management refresher course to the people at the facility where I work, I ask them all to give themselves a pat on the back for the incredible job they do keeping alive the sort of people that the rest of you only have strange, uneasy dreams about. I tell them that if they were to, as a group, get wiped out one day, the people who live where we work would be dead in a week because most of the rest of society wouldn't have the first clue how to take care of folks who are this complicated medically, behaviorally, and physically.

Were these places hellholes at times? You bet they were. And given that every state had a place like this that fell on to similar hard times, it was pretty much only by the grace of the dedicated facility staff that so many of these people are still alive.

When I see people taking potshots at these staff my blood boils. I have to say, I truly scorn anyone who dares criticize these folks without working several shifts, lifting the stiff, misshapen bodies of people who can barely move a limb, helping take care of the very people who may have physically attacked them not an hour before, helping people who are blind and deaf and physically handicapped to get some recreational experiences, sitting with people who are in the midst of status epilepticus and not knowing whether they are ever going to come out of the seizure, and/or lifting someone with severe osteoporosis resulting from years of anticonvulsant medications only to hear that sickening "snap" sound that means that a bone has broken and knowing that they will then have to undergo an investigation because of the injury, even though they were as gentle and as careful as anyone could be.

THAT'S how I can defend this place and revile it at the same time. It's by holding two truths together at once - truths that on the surface look discrepant but aren't when you really look at them and consider them.

*****

:-) End of rant :-)

Ok, once again.......this picture was NOT painted for the "children",was not seen by the "children" had NOTHING to do with the "children" Obviously you didn't go back and read what this picture was about. Rather than explain it all over again, scroll up to 7-8-05 and read the explanation. However, if you are like most of the morons who have left comments you probably still won't get it. And once again well said Lynn.

Guess we'll jes' have to be misguided ignorant torturing asshats all by our ownselves, eh? ;-)

Hi Lynne,
Thanks for your reply. I totally understand what you mean about the staff who tried. It must be the hardest job in the world to deal with people like this. I like how you admit that these places had problems but defend the staff. I agree, many of these patients were violent and I suppose that in some cases they did need to be restrained.
Still, I think all those old movies and pictures from Pennhurst are important to see so people can understand how much better mental institutions are today. They were hell holes back then though, I don't think that can be denied. I know that people with certain mental problems still have to be restained at times due to violent antics but at least the conditions today are a lot better.
Again I never meant to attack the staff at all, I'm just saying that I am glad that conditions are better now.
One thing I didn't understand: they say this picture was drawn by staff right? Well wasn't it also supposed to be hung up in an area near kids? That's all I meant when I said it might scare some kids if it was hanging in a place they might have seen it. That's the only reason I commented about the children. Didn't the TA class involve the kids? Again thanks for your knowlegde.

The woman who actually drew this picture writes in to this list under the name "Black Sheep Marcia." Ask her directly.

Hi Marcia,
What was the TA class? I'm just wondering. Was it all for the staff or were patients there too? I read all of the above comments and I know that the picture was drawn by the TA class (and that most people in the class thought it was stupid) but I'm not sure what the TA class was. Also, was this picture hung up in a place near the patients? It just seems weird to me that if the TA class consisted of all adults that they would have to draw such a childish picture.
I'm just asking out of curiosity, I'm not passing attacking you, I'm just confused about what the purpose of this class was.
Lynne, I read one of your comments from January. I think it was the 13th of January 2006 and I have to say that your job sounds really difficult but really interesting. It must be hard to have to look over all those injuries and see where they came from. I believe you when you say most of them are self inflicted since I've read that a good number of the mentally ill do try to hurt themselves. It must be a really sad thing to see but I applaud you for doing your upmost to help those who are ill.
Once I heard a story but it maybe a rumor. Have you ever heard that way back in the olden days of threapy, the 1800s let's say, one of the ways to "cure" mental illness was to scare it out of ill? I've heard that back in those days the doctors would try to frighten people into saneness and actually do more harm than good. Is there any truth to this at all? If so how did they frighten them (like did they jump out at them and shout BOO or threaten them somehow)?
Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm really interested by all this.

I 'm sorry I don't remember what the TA stood for. I want to say transendental something but I'm just not sure. It was a class held for staff to better help us cope with all the negativity that was directed at us through the press etc. I guess there were some people who found it helpful, however I and 95% of this perticular class found it incredibly boring and a waste of time. The main idea was to give each other warm fuzzies everyday and then our lives would be so much better. Whatever. We were the 2nd to last class I believe and most of us had tried to avoid going til the very end. I think the last class had even worse attitudes than our class. There were no clients involved and the class was held in an unused room. The shades were hung up in the room after each class was over. Our painting merely reflected how WE felt being forced to attend a class that no one wanted to attend. I don't think it was childish at all just overall frustration. And it was a way of getting under our instructors skin one last time. Hope that clears it up for you.

Thanks Marcia!
In that case then there is nothing wrong with this drawing. It wasn't in an area around the patients and it was viewed merely as a frustrated joke by the staff so there's nothing bad about it at all then.
I wouldn't have been delighted to hear that it was for the children and residents to see but since it was only for the staff forced into a hated class then I can actually see some pretty good humor in the drawing. :D
I feel bad for anyone who is forced to attend these stupid classes, what the hell is the point anyway?
Thanks again for your reply.

Poor Motts is probably regretting the day he took this one...

Well I'm glad I cleared it up for you. However one thing you've said disturbs me still. This picture, I doubt, would have caused and client nightmares. Except for the highest functioning client (and there weren't a whole lot of them) I'm sure none of them would be able to interpret this picture to any degree. You seem to be assuming that the clients were higher functioning than what they were. The majority of clients at Pennhurst were in the Severe to Profound range of retardation. Believe me if you can't be toilet trained after 20 years you are not interpreting pictures.

Well I hope too many clients didn't see it then. That's what I was saying from the begining, if this was going to scare the clients maybe it was a poor idea to hang it up. You know what I mean? It's not your fault at all--whoever ran the class should have had the sense.
Thanks a lot for your explaination though. This must have been a very sad place to work in with all the damged people but at least you did your best to help them. It's a sad situation.

Oh my God, Marcia I'm sorry I read your e-mail wrong! It's been a long day. I didn't notice the "I doubt" part somehow. I am so sorry!
I know what you are saying, the picture was harmless to the clients because they couldn't understand it. Sorry but I thought you had said it could have been harmful. LOL I need to rest my eyes! I've been writing all day. Sorry about that again. Just ignore that alst comment, my bad. :)

It's probably unhelpful to point out that ALL the sheep are black. Just easier to do on a white background, I suppose. I'm not suggesting any kind of racial prejudice was in play. It's just maybe significant when there's that "black sheep of the family" bullshit saying which seems to persist in my archaic environs. Just a thought.

I'm more disturbed with the fact that no one named the crocs. I will name them Steve and Louise.

LOL good one Danny being Manny! :D

And the most riveting discussion over photo award goes to.... lol

Dang you, Weebs! 8`-) I even scrolled back to see if there was a comment by someone named "lol"!!!!! 8`-)

Wow this is awsome, maybe the aligators symbolize death and the ones on top of the pit are still patients and the ones on the rainbow are free and went home. lol, poor Jean!

Here we go again!

Guess what? I didn't read all the posts after Lynne and Marcia's 3-4th post. Why? Because as a person that has worked in health care for over 20 years, much like themselves, I know better than to blabber on about "laymen" or ppl NOT experienced in healthcare. I have to admit I am upset. This is supposed to be a photography site. I came here to appreciate Motts photographs and enjoy his tour through places that I will never see with my own eyes. I didn't come to this site to read a bunch of arrogant one-sided CRAP about the decline or progression, depending on who you ask, of healthcare. No one has worked in every facility that Motts has photographed. Nor have they worked in them for all the years they were open. You can not take one workers insight/ view of a specific time period and assume it was that way for all those years. How would they know? They can't. This place could have been ghastly before that person worlked there. And how dare anyone judge a former patient's view of life in an institution. That narrow-mindedness is appalling. Please appreciate Motts "art" and let it speak for itself.

Neither Lynn or I have ever said that institutions were not bad at one time or another. If you want to make up scenerios about the different pictures you are looking at ,knock yourself out. However, I will step in now and then to defend my point of view whether you like it or not. Most of the comments that are left are just plain ridiculus. Sorry if you don't like hearing the truth once in awhile but tuff shit.

As I stated before, your point of view is limited to a certain time period. But if you want to post a bunch of rambling "stuff" about how you KNOW what happened at this facilty because you worked there, be my guest. Apparently some ppl don't mind. I will draw my own conclusions and appreciate the photos for what they are: art. =]

Comments pertaining to real location names, methods of entering the property, promotions or advertisements, off-topic discussion and general flaming, as well as those submitted under various aliases are subject to immediate deletion and your ip address being banned from this website. By submitting your comment you agree to these terms. Visit the forum for off-topic and general discussion.

*****Memories and stories from past employees, visitors or patients are gratefully welcomed, they help keep these places alive!*****

So... wait a tic... You posted your opinion on how you don't want to read other people's opinions? You're going to find the internet a cold, lonely place...
The best advice, then, I could give is to IGNORE the comments area, and stick to looking at the pictures. That's what you are saying you want, and it really isn't that hard to do...

Can't we all just look at the pretty pictures and get along? I like the little sheep on the bottom left who is surfing on top of the crocs face, he's like "whooa I'm surfing" and the croc won't eat him because he obviously has the same eye disorder Little Orphan Annie did!
Ok, now back to the bickering and long winded debates, carry on!

P.S. I hope my silly remark doesn't offend anyone, I was just trying to be silly and lighten the mood here.

Lol nice Van Gogo! ^_^ Yah i cant believe one lil pick got sooo much attention. I think if i had to choose though, i would agree with Lynne and BSmarcia. Yes . Great gallery by the way Motts! Kudos.

Whoa! I thought I would visit the little black sheep again. I didn't expect them to have gained such a "tail"! As a normal child I often created works of art to please, anger, excite, and awe others. Many had no particular meaning. Often they were "works of circumstance". If I was near a field of cows, maybe a drew a cow getting run over or flying or some other such nonsense. Maybe I just thought it would be funny. Often the simplist explanation is the best one. In this case here, we have the artist who has clearly explained the art work. Case closed. She had her experiences and others had different experiences. Some were abused, but most were not. You can't think of the past in terms of today. The ways of thinking and the information available always effects what happens in any time frame. Often it wasn't known that the things that were done were harmful. We have the benefit today of knowing so many more things then people used to.

maybe the black sheep are lepricons and are looking for gold on the other side of the rainbow.after all that would make some sense.is the saying true?i have no idea.but it's a pritty good gues.

Too many stuck up people around, it seems.

One picture is worth a thousand words!

A human being chained to a bed. NO SANE PERSON CAN DEFEND THIS PLACE!

If former staff personal would admit that Pennhurst was a terrable place, however MOST of the staff did the best they could under the circumstances I could accept that.

"A human being chained to a bed. NO SANE PERSON CAN DEFEND THIS PLACE!"

Chains? Who said anything about chains. Sorry the last time I looked I'm a sane person who defends the place. Can't help it, just do.

No sain person can defend this terrable place ! My neighbor worked at Pennhurst, she agrees NO SANE PERSON CAN DEFEND WHAT TOOK PLACE AT PENNHURST. SHE SERVED IN A PROFESSIONAL CAPACITY.

Parent, are you planning on contributing in some way or are you just looking for a place to rant and rave about something you know little about and insult people (like those who did work in a professionally capacity) in the process?

Its amazing isn't it? How you have to repeat yourself time and time again and people still do not get it.

So your neighbor was insane then since no sane person worked at Pennhurst?

Perhaps Parent is venting instead of ranting and raving.The Pennhurst website has some of the documents detailing what went on there.

It documents SOME activities that happened at Pennhurst. When an audit or survey occurs, the auditor's job is NOT to look for the good things that happen; only the violations or failures that can be seen. I know this because I myself do surveys at a state residential facility plus I have been under many surveys personally (in many different states) and I know how they work. Remember too, when lawyers are making a case to close a facility, they do not go out and take pix of the good things that they see. They also don't discuss what happens to a percentage of the children who had to stay at home because the waiting lists were too long and their parents became frustrated and, as the child grew older and exhibited more behavioral challenges, abuse understandably occurred. Marcia is saying that not every person who lived at Pennhurst (or any other state school) was abused and not every person who worked at Pennhurst (or any other state school) was an abuser.

"Parent" is tarring everyone with the same brush because of what s/he heard from a friend and read on a website that describes the bad things that happened at Pennhurst, not the good things that happened - of which there were many.

Most of us are just plain tired of hearing the accusing and blaming of people who didn't do anything to make things better for people who lived in institutional settings at the time (or even today, for that matter, because - believe it or not - there are still a bunch of institutions out there, and I am guessing that those of you who are complaining haven't been to one recently to see just what is or isn't happening there); they just want to blame those few of us who had the courage (stupidity, it appears now) to work in the field because at least that way there's someone else to put the blame on. We were the people who took care of these folks when no one else would/could. And sometimes we did a pretty terrible job when there was minimal pay, minimal training, triple overtime, and horrendously bad staffing ratios.

"Parent" doesn't want to look in the mirror and see whether or not s/he has called all local and state reps to push for more funding, nor has "Parent" stated whether s/he has done much in the way of supporting people with disabilities instead of just his/her own child. Rather than talking about how to make things better or empathizing with the staff who actually kept these very difficult and fragile folks alive, "Parent" is just lobbing stones. And after awhile we get a little unhappy having stones lobbed at us when we did a heck of a service to a group of people that few of y'all even look at today, much less help.

If you haven't walked the walk, don't pretend to talk the talk, and certainly get your dang hands off the pile of stones many of you seem to have at your fingertips that you are just itching to lob because - guess what? Most of y'all live in glass houses. :-)

Once again well said, Lynn!!!

Standing ovation here Lynnie!

I'm continually amused at the discussions about whether or not people were abused and mistreated in these facilities. Want to see abused? Read the paper. Watch the news. It's everywhere you look and there is no guesswork involved.
If you want to look at pictures of abandoned buildings and surmise about the abuse, cruelty and crimes against humanity, check out any abandoned jail or prison. I assure you there were all forms of degradation taking place daily in those types of structures.
... and men do well to hide their hell; for in it things are done, that son of man nor Son of God ever should look upon.

I look at the " people" every day and I do not live in a glass house.

Each and every one of us lives in a glass house at some time or another. And if someone is so pure and decent as to be above the common level of the rest of us, thus avoiding a glass house, that person is very likely going to be too decent to throw stones at other people anyway. That sort of a person would be more likely to extend a hand, to build rather than to tear down.

In my humble opinion. :-)

I feel sory for people that try to defend such a terrible place. I feel even worse for the children that were forced to live in the pit of oblivion.

And I am beginning to feel sorry for myself having to sift through such one-sided silliness from someone who never went there or any other residential facility and only has seen/heard a biased view and appears to be unwilling or incapable of processing additional information that doesn't support what this person wants so desperately to believe - that everything can be labeled "right" or "wrong," that everything is/was "black" or "white." Some people may be colorblind, but the rest of us know that the world has more than 2 hues, and even if a person IS totally colorblind, most people have the ability to at least see different shades of gray. What a small angry world to live in, having to see "yes" or "no", not multiple pieces of life as it really plays out. All heroes or villains - no room for the villain to do a good deed or a heroine to stumble a time or two. However, it is certainly a more comfortable way to live, isn't it? No worries, no guesses, just always being right.

Thank God I am a simple fool and can admit that I don't know what the heck I am talking about much of the time. At the same time, I can honestly say I have walked the walk in many, many different places and have a bit of experience about which I can speak, as wrong-headed as that makes me to some people. If all that ever happened in this place was torture and abuse you can bet I'd be the first person to speak out about it. But that would be a lie and I admit that I am a fool but I am NOT much of a liar. :-)

Poor Lynn, you must have a terrible headache from banging your head over this one.

What I find disturbing is that there is a sheep with my name on it that has fallen into the pit! xD

I do so love a woman who seems to love beating her head 'gainst the walls of futility and ignorance erected by the ignorant and contrary. Sometime those walls will ere be breached your ladyship. Your bearing of the cudgels of truth will not have been in vain.

I am thinking you are being overly optimistic, my dear friend and fellow sadist. To quote Ashleigh Brilliant, "I did not see it until I believed it." ;-)

P.S. What do you give a person for Christmas who wants to make every place into hell? Do you tell them they are right just to make them happy, or do you try to enlighten them? What an unusual dilemma! :-)

You can lead the horse to water,but you cant make him/her drink.

And you can lead a horticulture, but you can't make him/her think. :-)

all these famous qoutes , not one person has the power' we all need to wake up this stuff still happens , abuse , not nenough funds its all a shame they , goverment thinks we know what we want to here , if you or anyone cant see past these glib salespeople ,just wait until 2020

Hey some of the stuff here is original

Put in simple terms abuse in state institutions happened. Why? Up until the last decade or so State facilities had to hire anybody who would work for the crummy money the state pays. They didn't do CORI checks on perspective employees.
In the last 30 years I've worked with alcoholics, gambling addicts, dopers, ex patients and others. People who would work for low pay. The states don't attract the really good psychiatrists, psychologists and other professionals. Until recently the states have become more competitive in pay, and benefits. When I started I was bringing home under a 100 bucks a month. Would you take the chance of getting your head beat in for under 100 bucks a week? In 30 years I've made more than a few trips to the emergency room as a result of "activity" on a floor. It's a dangerous job, in which you are asked, nay required by laws, to put aside your normal responses to aggression and take it until help arrives. You can 'nonviolently' defend yourself for sure. You have to sign forms that these are the only techniques you will use to parry and defend yourself against aggression. The techniques are sometimes useful, some times not (they don't encompass every scenario, even the most likely one, the sucker punch). I've seen the transition from rockem sockem days to the more comfy pillow days (which are far superior to the old days).
It breaks down, to back in the day, money and taking who you could get for low pay to a more consumer oriented approach these days. Although the occasional loo loo sneaks through and the joint makes the papers again with shocking tales of abuse and misconduct worthy of a bacchanalian orgy.

Abuses happened. They still do, not on any sort of huge scale anymore. The people who are workers (sadists) and patients (the nobly afflicted) are both human beings with all the wonderment that comes with both.




Shit happened, happens, will happen.

Almost makes you think that ALL people, even staff, might be human, eh? I have always wondered why anyone would do this sort of work, and am shocked and impressed by the good care that the majority of staff, under what could best be described as combat conditions on a bad day, give to the majority of patients/clients/ individuals. Staff endure high stress, low control, low pay, low respect, bizarre/regressed behavior, and always the ever-present threat of being sniped at by self-righteous outsiders who don't have a clue and would probably react MUCH more harshly if their own pure selves were in the same situation. Until you have been bitten, had urine and feces thrown at you, had your hair pulled out in clumps, and had to dodge flying pieces of very large, very heavy furniture, there isn't a person alive who can predict how s/he will react. As always, the shock isn't that abuse occurred/occurs - the shock is that as little of it happened/happens given the constraints under which staff are forced to work and the people who live in these places are forced to live. Change the system and you'll probably get a change in behavior. Sit at your computer and call people names without getting off your butt and all you do is help maintain the system. Get out there and help or please quit whining and groaning.

Or at least, to quote Ashleigh Brilliant one more time, "If you must keep groaning, please try to do it in a rhythm I can dance to." :-)

People who do this work, for years on end, realize what you have to do is the best you can do to get through the day. It's not a battle every day, but stuff happens that makes you shake your head and wonder why do I do this... Most folks start out thinking they can change the world, and end up having the world change them. I've said this before, State hospitals don't get the easy ones. We get the ones who have burned every possible bridge, and are out of other options. We take in the indigent wack jobs. We are sent criminals by the court for evaluation. We get dump jobs from other facilities. So with this mixed bag we have to do our best to keep everyone of them safe, fed, and cared for in the most humane way possible. You wouldn't believe how hard that can be some days. Bad days make you want to eat your own liver. Good days just leave ya saying phew, made it.

Big ED wrote: "Bad days make you want to eat your own liver. "

Before someone else gets to it first. ;-)

indigent whack jobs :-(

Flaming?

Maybe.

However, I must say that through all of these posts Lynne and Big Ed have remained consistant and steadfast in spite of the ignorance and accusations. They have defended their professions gallantly.
But mark my words dear people, "If you keep poking, even the sweetest dog will bite"

Lynne, I had to read the "horticulture" remark three times before I "got it". Har, Har ,Gufaw and Snicker! Me thinks yer comical side is sweet, lassy!

i work in the local authority funded sector of this sort of work (on a very small scale compared with places like this) and even after three months (and i just work in the office) the job has blown my mind. to see the staff continuing to try to engage with and make a difference to their charges, even in the face of sometimes violent protests, makes me wonder what it must have been like in the overcrowded days of the huge US state institutions.

in the short time i have worked at my place i have already seen huge positive changes in some of the people being cared for. it's often a case of one step forward and two back, but it's progress nonetheless.

yes, bad things happened in places like this. awful, unforgivable things. but so did good things. if you stop believing in the basic humanity of people, what have you got left?

*shuts up*

The lovely and surly Surly Girl wrote, "if you stop believing in the basic humanity of people, what have you got left? "

Poking, whining, and self-righteousness? ;-)

Just a guess, mind you.

Well said Surly Girl. My sister was in various state institutions (west coast) from '76 to '86. I visited her many times in that period and remember her various surroundings very well. Looking back, I can say the care was exceptional. In those years my sister was ages 13 to 23 and was far better off inside the bin than outside. She's been out and living on disability for more than twenty years now and seems to be managing well. From the first day I went and met staff, management, docs, (I was about ten years old), I have had the utmost respect and admiration for these in-
credible people. Surly Girl, I sincerely share your wonder (and anyone else's) of what it was like back in the day. How appropriate the good doctor popped in here :-)

Knowledge,skill and experience are necessary qualities which one must aquire,but they are of little use unless accompanied by kindness,sympathy and understanding of human nature

Yes I said wack job. Listen I work in a state where mental health spending, while not nearly enough, is enough to fund the facilities at a level that keeps the federal inspectors happy enough to kick in funds. Mass Mental hospitals received no medicare funding from 1978 to 1997 we were damned lucky to pass JCAHO inspections then. So we are relatively well funded. I've heard horror stories from mental healt professionals in a number of states. It was bad in Mass but it improved.. So what ever anyone's notions of abuse and maltreatment are you're not wrong. The stuff you hear about happened. Most often it was isolated incidents. It was certainly not systemic. We helped far more people than were harmed. Lots of very dedicated people work in state mental hospitals everywhere. There are a number of not so nice people working there too. You wanna try weeding them out? I invite you to try.. You haven't walked the mile in our shoes. If you relative was abused I'm sorry it happened. I really am. I'm also sorry for the poor bastards who were crippled by someone's relative who was having a 'bad hairday' or something like that

Hi Big Ed,
I'm sorry to keep this going but this thread is really interesting. You actually had to go to the hospital because of injuries sustained on the job? Wow, I never thought of that before, although I suppose it's possible given the line of work.
I hope none of your injuries were really bad. Can you tell about any of them? God I'm nosey.... I hope you don't mind I'm just really interested. Happy holidays by the way. :-)

You know, I've been (just for nerdy yucks on a Friday night) reading the conversation here on this board for a good part of the evening now, and I've noticed something very interesting: Those people who started out taking a stab at mental health care professionals just haven't seemed to be able to stick around to finish the conversation. Like cowards, they dart in to take a poke and then dart away with their tails between their legs before they can feel the sting of the blow that's returned. And yet the healthcare workers - you sadistic pigs, you [being facetious! not really a flame!] - hang in there steadily and continue to defend yourselves rationally with facts and opinions gleaned from hard fought experience. Now, I've never worked in the healthcare field myself - which probably makes me just as much an expert as the rest of these bleeding heart sentimentalists out there - but it seems to me that he who backs down from the fight he started lacks the artilery needed to finish it. I have news for you people - we live in a fallen world. Yucky things happen here. They happen all around us, right in our backyards, not just in state run mental hospitals. If you want to pick out some yuck to complain about, stick to subjects with which you have experience - more experience than just what you've heard 2nd hand or seen pictures of on a website, that is - and leave others who are willing to make a difference alone so they can continue to fight the good fight. Get off your high horse! You're irritating! Lynne, Marcia, Big ED - you keep on keeping on =) I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and what you do despite the odds against you. You all do or have done more for the fragile and forgotten souls of this world than these laissez faire, People Magazine reading, Doctor Phil watching couch potatoes could ever even comprehend.

*phew!* Glad I got THAT off my chest!

Thanks, GJ. :-)

Long Island - where I currently work our leading cause of staff injuries is almost always due to what we affectionately refer to as "challenging behaviors." Remember, a lot of these people aren't able to control themselves at all times, which is why most of them are here. The job of staff is to do everything they can to support our people, even when (especially when) they are out of control and/or aggressive, and staff must use ONLY nonviolent means to keep everyone safe or else they are fired (with very few exceptions).

Ironically, it is people who believe the world is supposed to be a "fair" place who have the toughest time with this concept. They believe (which is certainly their right) that you treat everyone the same and expect the same out of everyone. "An eye for an eye." That would be fine if we were all clones and in "perfect working order," but true "fairness" means giving everyone what they NEED, not giving them the same thing (or the same amount of something) as everyone else.

One day we'll have a better way to deal with folks who are out of control and become aggressive. Until then we are stuck with our imperfections, our bad days, our weaknesses, and our outdated medical/behavioral interventions. If anyone has a better answer or better way to do this, we all would certainly (and sincerely) be interested in learning how to do it. Money isn't the total answer, but with money you can be more stringent in your hiring/firing practices, you can increase the amount of training that staff receive, and you can recruit/keep some excellent people. Over the past 2 years where I work we have lost a number of our best clinicians because they pay so much more other places. States do not offer much in the way of pay in comparison with the private sector, and direct care staff can usually get as good a good working at Wendy's (and they won't be forced to work mandatory overtime or change anyone's undergarments - unless, of course, they work with Dr. Sketch).

P.S. Other than the usual cuts, scrapes and bruises that are part and parcel of the job, I have only had 2 injuries that caused me to seek medical treatment, so I have gotten off relatively easy. Once I was hit with a chair and got some cracked ribs and once a person with hepatitis B tried to pull out my right eyeball, but that's it. I have certainly dodged my share of flying furniture and other projectiles, however, as well as being "painted" many a time. Again, however, if that is something a person can't deal with, this is certainly not the right place to be. I always know that the person being aggressive either can't help him/herself or is looking at me as "one of them," so I just can't take it personally, so I don't respond in an emotional manner (which is where we get accusations of being cold and clinical 8`-] ). This behavior is just a different type of communication and my job is to help people learn a more functional means of communicating about their upsets, not to squelch their (often) only means of communication.

Thanks Lynne,
Cracked ribs? Ow! It is really amazing that some people think everyone who worked in these places were awful people. You, as staff, put up with far more abuse than the patients do and really, as you said, many times the patients can't help themselves. You care so much about people who wouldn't survive anywhere else.

I don't know if I've mentioned this before but my cousin's wife is a nurse at a mental hospital and she said that some of the worst cases she's seen are PTSD cases. She knew man who had PTSD from his childhood (abusive home life) and he was the most seemingly normal person ever--except when he thought he had to go into a bath tub. He was fine with showers but he didn't like tubs because when he was 8 his stepdad tried to drown him in one. I was told that if he got put into a room with a tub he could actually panic and become violent thinking that he was 8 again and the people trying to calm him down were actually his stepdad. PTSD is a bad illness.

I suppose that, to a degree, people are right when they say that in the past bad people worked in these places and bad things happnened there but, I'd be willing to wager, there were more good than bad people working at these places and in today's world it's almost all good.

Maybe the world is growing up, nevertheless, they have a gem as long as they have you Lynne. :-)

Thanks for answering so many questions on here.

Thanks girljay, it's so nice to hear that once in a great while someone "gets it" I too have noticed that some posters don't stick around for the discussion. But that's ok. There's always another misguided person that will come along and pick it up with another ridiculus comment. I'm just grateful that Lynn has the patience to try and set them straight. I ran out awhile ago.

PTSD can be horrible.I once worker with a man who did 2 tours in Viet Nam.Sometimes we would talk about the war and you could see him change and for a minute he was back in the war.

If you go back,not that long ago,many of these places had 2 and 3 times the capacity they were designed for.It is said that Danvers State Hospital at one time had 2,500 patients.Can you imagine what that could have been like?There was not alot of effective medications.When a person goes high,the adrenilan takes over and you could have someone with super human strength.It could take 4 or 5 men to restrain a patient.At that point all that could be done was give the patient medication and put them in restraints.Hopefully they would calm down.Thats a pretty tough job.

Tell me about it William. I've heard that back in the 1800s most mental hospitals were full of soldiers who had PTSD although back then no one knew what it was yet. I would say PTSD is one of the most frightening illnesses because the person can behave normally in most settings and then something triggers the bad memories and they lose control. Most of the time peole can just get lost in memories but in certain PTSD cases (as my cousin-in-law's example above proves) they can actually become violent due to fear. It takes a very special kind of person to help people with these problems.

Before it was called PTSD,the term shell shocked may have been used.I dont think everyone gets violent.Some retreat inside of themselves.PTSD is said to cause Multiple Personalities.There was a book written by a woman who was diagnosed with had M/P.Her name was Trudy,the books title is When Rabitts Howl.

Thanks, I must check out that book. As I said above not all people do become violent--many just go into memory but a few like the bath tub case my cousin-in-law told me about) can become violent. One way or another what a sad illness. :-

I will check out the book though. If you want to read more about this place Pennhurst) check out this link. This was written by a patient:

http://www.disabilitym...docs/1681.htm?page=1

I thank god Pennhurst is closed. I worry that with the waiting list for services being so long the state may try to open large care facilities in the future.

I have something very sarcastic to say to that last comment but I shall bite my tongue and behave.

"Hi Big Ed,
I'm sorry to keep this going but this thread is really interesting. You actually had to go to the hospital because of injuries sustained on the job?"

I've had to go for a few tetanus shots because of cuts I've received. Once I had to be checked for a concussion after I took a couple of shots to the head.. I had a split lip from a sucker punch. I worked at the pointy end of the stick (that's how I describe direct care staff who are first in the room on a help call). If everyone did their job no one got hurt staff or patient.. Patients were almost never injured during helpcalls. For those who may feel otherwise, consider this. If some one did get hurt we'd have to spend the rest of the shift treating the injury and trying to CYA. We're a lazy lot paperwork wise. So we were as careful as possible to not injure anyone ,if not from a sense of compassion then for our own good..

Take downs are supposed to be safe efficient and rare. We always tried to be that way. A fight on the floor ruined a night. Someone could get hurt, restraints might happen, and the documentation these days would choke a horse. Restrain a patient kill a forest.

Thanks Big Ed,
What a bunch of stories! You certainly have a tough job but you do your best. Thank you for answering my question. Merry Christmas. :-)

VIOLENT ! VIOLENT! I have no dout ihe clients at PENNHURST lost control of their emotions. If I found myself in the DOCUMENTED conditions that existed at PENNHURST, I dout that I would be able to contain my emotions!

People shoul spend less time thying to defend Pennhurst and more time making sure it never happens again.

parent,

I see that - you are hardly able to control yourself NOW and you are presumably under fairly ideal conditions. :-)

P.S. I would advise a slightly larger circle of reading and references than that which you have limited yourself to. However, the danger there is that you might learn something you don't want to know - that is, that not all staff were killers and torturers, that not all situations were 100% terrible, that some people thrived even in rough situations, and that every now and then good things happened.

You would also have to realize that until you get off your hindquarters and get out there and push for increased taxes for mental health that this will happen over and over again while you are sitting there with your mouth agape and your finger pointing outward - you will then have to realize that "when you point a finger at someone else, 4 fingers are pointing back at you."

However, it's sure easier to poke at other people than to do something yourself, I've found. How can you fail when you never try? Leaves you right (and righteous) 100% of the time.

Come out with us and get your feet (and index finger that you wag at others so much) dirty and THEN tell us what it's like. Then you might have some credibility. Right now you come across merely as an armchair whiner. That's the best job in the world because you don't have to do anything but complain and protest. Maybe I should come join you. It would be a lot easier than actually doing something, that's for sure. :-)

Advocate,

That's exactly what many of us do. But if you can't see the good that went with the bad you are doomed to repeat history. If you throw the baby out with the bathwater you'll have a nice clean tub but no baby. :-)

Please remember:
"Comments . . . submitted under various aliases are subject to immediate deletion and your ip address being banned from this website. By submitting your comment you agree to these terms."

Just admit PENNHURST was a terrable place. Look at the pictures read the documation. For your own sake admit it.
Only then will you become credible. Admitting our mistakes allows us to move forward!

In one ear and out the other, eh? :-)

OK, then - you're right, of course. All those of us who work(ed) in institutions ever do (did) was torture, maim, humiliate, cremate, abuse, and harass our innocent charges, none of whom would have ever had any issues or problems had they not been kidnapped and forced into slavery in our hell holes. Yeah, you found us out. Our bad. Oops! Busted!

Marcia - Ed - looks like this very clever, erudite person finally found out what we have really been doing all these years through his/her brilliant deductive logic that just leaves me squealing in the aisles with shame, misery, and guilt. Ouch! Ouch! Put away your sharp yet brilliant rhetoric! You found us out! Oh golly gosh, we are and were terrible people but you can tell us how it should have been done and how we can rectify our hideous mistakes of the past! I see that you alone hold the key, and the rest of us are and always were torturous dogs! No, that would be unfair to dogs to say that.

But of course you are right! We need to admit our horrible past first before we can move on. You got us there. Oh, ouch! Oh, this hurts! Touche! Touche!

Happy now? Probably not, I am guessing. You seem a lot happier when you are in a self-righteous snit. :-)

I work in mental health as well. I know nothing about Penthurst except for what I've read in this incredibly lengthy blog. My only question is this:

Some of you (names aside) have been fighting on this page for over A YEAR AND A HALF and what have you accomplished?? Not a damn thing. I'm going to bed, because I have to work tomorrow....

I THINK THEE DO PROTEST TO MUCH. If documented facts mean nothing, I can only conclude that those that would defend the indenfencable must of had a vested interest in stitutions like Pennhurst.

Listen, if the documentation you are reading is bits and pieces located on another site, you are missing some important background information. I'm very angry that this literature was left laying about so brainiacs like yourself could interpret it to your own liking. If you are reading court documents well god bless you if you can understand any of that. I read some of the documentation from a suspected case of abuse and the key word here is suspected. Unfortunately you know nothing about the client involved and his capabilities. I remember this incident well. However reading the documentation would lead you to believe the allegations were true. Not so...but see you have to know the whole story not just a few excerpts from some interviews. This is why I have a problem with you parent. You are only believing what you chose to believe. I'm sorry if it bothers you that a few of us defend places like Pennhurst but someone here has to or there would be far too many ignorant people posting nonsense all the time. I have no intention on backing down from anyone. People like you are annoying but sooner or later you'll get bored and go bother someone else. We can only hope it is sooner than later.

parent,

I think thee doth need a spellcheck function and a way to deal with your overuse of the Caps Lock key.

Tiffy, please don't bother your head with arguments and debate. If you can't understand what this is about, don't let it bother your sleep. Some people need to see things wrapped up neatly in black and white. Some people want happy endings all the time. Too bad life isn't like that. Ironically, that's what the real debate is here - not if someone is right or wrong, but the manner in which people view, analyze, and interpret information, how much information they choose to look at, and what conclusions they reach from what they are willing to look at.

Marcia, some people enjoy not getting it, don'tcha think? 'Specially those who have never done anything about it 'cept bitch and whine. They do tire me after a while, but after 35+ years I am used to the high-pitched whine of their ceaseless droning. I think they pity themselves more than they pity anyone who was ever in a bad situation, since they don't know what they are talking about and fiercely refuse to learn.

Oh well. :-)

FACTS ARE FACTS! FACTS ARE FACTS ! FACTS ARE FACTS! FACTS ARE FACTS!
DENY IT ALL YOU WANT . THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AGREED FACTS ARE FACTS!

I WAS GOING TO CORRECT MY SPELLING ERRORS BUT I KNEW I COULD COUNT ON YOU TO USE IT AS A DIVERSION!

I ASSURE YOU I WILL NOT GO AWAY! THE STAKES ARE TO HIGH. I WILL CONTINUE TO WORK HARD AND MAKE SURE CHILDREN NOW AND IN THE FUTURE WILL NOT BE CONDEMED TO THE PIT OF OBLIVION IN INSTITUTIONS LIKE PENNHURST.

"THE STAKES ARE TO HIGH."

Damn, then I guess that means the tent won't hold...

Lynne,
You've created a monster... All I can think of is Col. Kurtz' last words...

Did anyone read the information on the Pennhurst home page?

William,

We've done more than read the information. That's the point. People are working off a few small pieces of information and want to believe that's all that ever happened. And they want us to believe that things will get better when so many people are so short-sighted and small-minded as to ignore the larger picture and everything that happened, not just look at the bad parts.

Why does history get repeated? It's because no one seems to want to learn from it - from ALL of it, not just the parts that people choose to pay attention to. The difference between some of us and others of us is that some of us want to see the entire scope of what happened because we think that is how we can make things better. If you want to look at the bad engine that caused a car wreck, that's great. But if you miss the fact that the entire design was faulty, that the factory itself was faulty, it won't save any more lives by just fixing the engine, because there are more problems than that.

Why don't you two stop looking at the engine and look at the factory that built the machines? Are people afraid to admit that this was a societal problem and stop poking at the people who were stuck in a broken system? It's a lot harder to point a finger at the larger system - no easy scapegoat. And some people need a scapegoat to sleep at night. Salves their guilty consciences so they don't have to see that ALL of us were the problem - the entire society.

parent, if you weren't out there helping out at Pennhurst then you are a hypocrite of the worst sort - the one that likes to blame others and doesn't help out. However, at the same time by writing in over and over again and missing the main point, in a small way you have done a service. You have shown us where the problems still are in the system - that people still want to blame past problems on individuals and not the lousy system and the people who didn't take care of the system - the voters. And for that, I thank you. You have done a great service to people who read this by showing them what happens when people are unable or unwilling to grasp the larger picture. You get to make it happen all over again.

Yeah, blame it on the engine.

Marty, my friend.

We have to deal with name-calling monsters like this all the time. They do tend to get on your nerves occasionally, but only because they don't know what they are talking about. I admit, I don't mind a true debate, but this person is at the "nanny-nanny-boo-boo" level and doesn't have any information to back him/her up.

Believe me, we're used to it - over the years Marcia, Big Ed, and I have been called a lot worse names by a much higher class of people for working in this field. ;-)

Navi,

Tee hee! :-)

not to be the devils advocate, but there can be many reasons for parents intrest , perhaps, he, she was a parent of someone hurt. when i read parents comments i dont see any direct finger pointing . anyone with some smarts knows there are some great mental health workers out there .

Parents neighbor worked at Pennhurst and apparently didn't have a good experience. Also the cribs were not just used for children. Cribs were used for clients who were at risk for falling out of bed and injuring themselves due to seizures, being nonambulatory, many reasons other than having a rail to "chain" them to. You really have to get rid of the image of little children being the dominate inhabitants of Pennhurst. It just was not the case.

Sorry, the crib reference was actually on a different picture. Got a little confused. I am allowed occassionally to make a mistake.

Hi Lynne,
I was referring to the Opacity home page for the Pennhurst school.That home page and both sets of pictures have information describing some of the conditions at the school.There is also a link to check out some of the Pennhurst documents.None of it paints a very good picture.Some of the things that went on were pretty horrible.That does not mean that everyone was treated like.That also does not mean that everyone who worked there treated people poorly.Most of the people who worked there tried their best.The few who did their job poorly or abused patients made everyone look bad.
Each place shown on Opacity has a little background information.Many of the hospitals,asylums and schools had some history that was sad.For many,that is what they think when they look at the pictures.When you look at the outside of Danvers State Hospital,you see a beautiful building.When you look at the inside,you see darkness..For someone who does not know much about mental illness,it is difficult to think that anything good ever happened there.When a Kirkbride asylum or hospital opened,it was a beautiful,well run facility.By the 1950's many of those places were horrible.They were not funded adequately,there was not enough staff and they had more patients than they were designed to hold.The state goverment has responsibilty for many of the problems.Society has some responsibilty for not wanting to have anything to do with the mentally ill.For many,out of sight was out of mind.
There are many things that get repeated in history.The human race does not always learn from their past errors.We still experience things today that went on in the past such as wars,conflicts over religion,and many other things.The killing of millions in the death camps during WW2 happened 60 years ago.We would have hoped that something like that would not be repeated,but it happened again in Cambodia,Chechnia and many other countries.It happened many times before World War 2.I dont know why this happens.Is it human nature?
I think it is important to talk about mental illness.There are lots of people who would like to know more about it.I have suffered from mental illness since the 1970's.Learning as much as I can about my illness has been very important.It is a learning experience that never ends.Please dont get so frustrated when someone makes a comment that is negative to your profession.People with mental illness have lived with those remarks for a long time.

These kind of pictures fascinate yet terrify me. Someone, either adult or child, has drawn this long ago, created a picture of the world they knew around them within those walls, of the people around them.
Probably heard of the phrase black sheep to mean an outcast, so used that since they were all outcasts of society back then (and in some cases even now), and the names make me chilly.
The fact these are real people the artist knew perhaps. Jean maybe died somehow as did the other unnamed sheep. Bennie? and Jo have managed to escape the pit, and Marcia and Mary seem to be between heaven and hell itself.

or it could be just a drawing someone drew and named the sheep because he or she wanted to.

After studying the documents on this websight, I need say nothing else. Any thinking rational person can read what a terraable place Pennhurst was. NOT BAD PEOPLE JUST A BAD SYSTEM.

what the FUCK... if your gonna fake it at least crumble it up or dirty it up with rips and tears. whos kid did you get to draw that one?
iloveyoufgt.

XEmOx....(whatever)....what's your issue? Do you see anyone else yelling that word? I've seen your name on a few nasty comments on this site, so...since I'm absolutely sure you'll have at least one equally intelligent little response (as people who talk like that can never resist just ONE more comment....;-),..I'll just sit back and wait for it to come up.....(takes a sip of hot coffee, and smiles...).

Evidently XEmOxLoVeR666X has a very limited vocabulary, nvusofmotts-my friend.

Yep. A four-letter one. Classy. Anyway....back to the pix (I promised I'd (try to) stick to the topic, and have since slapped my own hand sat in the corner for, well, at least a little while...;-) ). I still haven't looked at them all. It seems like every time I go back through a gallery, there's another little detail in a picture I hadn't noticed before. It's fascinating to discover. I truly can't imagine (as I'm sure none of us can), what it would have been like to have spent the better part of a lifetime in one of these places....I mean, NEVER to have known a life even remotely like the "everyday" experiences we all take for granted...hmmm. Just a thought. ---BTW, Motts, thanks so much for the wallpaper!...:-). I stuck a great one on my desktop. I know, it's been said before, but still...great site..;-)

Pretty picture with a sad symbolism. :,(

DAM..I AGREE WITH EVERYONE!!! (:

THE PLACE IS CREEPY THOUGH AND U CAN TELL A LOT OF SHIT HAPPENED THERE

I grew up in the Pottstown area near Spring City. As a junior high school student, I first visited Pennhurst on a health class field trip. It seemed an inappropriate place for young teenagers to "learn," and, in fact, one of the boys in our group passed out cold when the place became too much for his sensibilities. Pennhurst was shocking simply as an institution. It was even more shocking to see groups of retarded and mentally ill people housed like this. I would visit Pennhurst two more times before it closed. A few years after my school visit to Pennhurst, my mother took a job there as a ward assistant. It was her job to watch over and care for the patients. Two times in the year or so she worked there, I accompanied her to the facility for reasons I cannot recall. I remember being approached by "Elvis," a patient who was intent on trying to charm me with his animal magnetism. While my mother had the psychological fortitude to deal with the daily, sometimes mundane but often disturbing realities of caring for institutionalized mentally ill patients, she eventually had to leave her job because of abuse she witnessed. She filed a complaint, but nothing significant came of it. The sheer helplessness and bizarre behavior of such human beings in such an environment makes them extraordinarily vulnerable. To be their caregiver demands an almost superhuman level of patience, compassion, alertness and sometimes physical strength. This is not work suited to those who simply need a paycheck, and that is where I think the disconnect lies. But, tell me, where would you find the number of people needed who also happened to possess the virtues to care for helpless people with integrity, to provide physical assistance with compassion, to nurture psychologically with respect? And to do it five days a week, no matter what. It's a tall order. Not many people could do it. I couldn't. And I thank God for those who can.

HEY 9/27/07 WITNESS. WHAT TOWN DID YOU LIVE IN AND WHAT HIGH SCHOOL DID YOU ATTEND ? WHAT YEAR DID YOU GRADUATE ? WHO WAS YOUR ENGLISH, SOCIAL STUDIES, HOMEROOM TEACHERS, AND PRINCIPAL ? EVERYONE SAYS THEY ARE FROM MONTGOMERY OR CHESTER COUNTY BUT THEY ARE NOT. IT IS SO EASY TO VIEW A MAP. BUNCH OF FAKES. READ THE 9/18/07 PERSONAL INTERVIEW ON PEECHO FOR THE TRUTH AND COME OUT OF YOUR FANTASY WORLD, FAKE.

http://apnews.excite.c...71115/D8STSDM00.html it's always going on somewhere, however, seems much less 'glamorous' than the past.

Inflammatory and potentially libelous comments are not supported on this forum and will be removed. Please read the notice posted under every photo that states the ground rules for posting. When removing such comments other posts may also be removed because they are then out of context.

Hey, barry, I lived in Coventryville next to the historic Dunn house, off of Rt. 23 about 2 miles west of Owen J. Roberts High School, the school I graduated from in 1975. How would I recall the name of the principal...when nobody ever paid attention to him anyway? I'm not fake...are you?

In reference to barry's note of the 9/18/07 interview on the El Peecho site, there's no doubt that residents of Pennhurst suffered terrible conditions and abuse by their keepers. The world is made up of all kinds of people, and they are found everywhere—even in places like Pennhurst.

I still say, however, that having been inside Pennhurst as a "guest" when the facility was still operational, caring for people who are mentally challenged and in an institutional setting is extremely difficult. Especially when the caregivers did not have adequate support from the state or the residents' families. I believe it takes very special people to do this work the way we think it should be done.

I had a young mentally retarded cousin in Pennhurst. I just learned this a week ago. I have little doubt that she had few or no visitors and suffered as many others did. It's appalling, for every person who ever had to live there. And now it's hit even closer to home for me.

wow. i realize i'm discovering this thread very late, but i feel compelled to commend and agree with Lynne. In another thread in the Pennhurst section (of the pic of the basement w/ the painting of the many-eyed thing) I used the example of Facilitated Communication to illustrate concrete evidence of the "witch trial" mentality, which I agree is just as harmful as taking advantage of the defenseless. It's also quite disturbing, as the witch hunters, in a perverse way, really seem to want those stories of abuse to be true, as if to fulfill some masochistically romantic fantasy of trial endurance that they have. Just know that there are rational people out there who aren't blind to the benevolence and hard work of mental health professionals.

It costs three times as much to keep people in institutions than in four person group homes. There is no dout good and terrable things occured at institutions. The point is people can be better served in group homes .
where abuse is less likely to occur for less money and human dignity is preserved

" The point is people can be better served in group homes .
where abuse is less likely to occur for less money and human dignity is preserved"
Well I don't know about that. I think it's probably about the same. Maybe less reported because there is less monitoring.

I personally believe that everyone who can SHOULD live in the community if there are enough resources to make that happen. However, the cost of being institutionalized versus living in the community is close to equal at this point. That is because the majority of people who first moved from the institutions to the community were people with more supports and more skills. People who currently live in institutional facilities have fewer skills overall and a significantly higher rate of behavioral, medical, and physical challenges.

When we finally move everyone out, and I am confident we eventually will, the costs - which are running neck and neck now - will shift to being more expensive to live in the community. However, I personally think it is worth it for everyone to have better access to the community, even though physical integration doesn't equal social integration, as we have seen in the research.

I do disagree, however, about abuse being detected more quickly in the community. There is little support for this as far as facts and figures, and in fact, at this point the institutions have a higher reporting rate and for smaller injuries and incidents. That is due to the fact that there are more people at a facility who are able to see our folks whereas in most community placements you have fewer people who work longer shifts and the turnover rate means that you will have a whole new set of staff every year, on the average. The turnover rate in the community is between 100% and 150%. In the facility where I work it is around 15%. That can be a good thing or it can be a bad thing, but it does mean that there are more people who are familiar with our folks and because we have roving crews of staff who monitor living areas and check out nursing logs and injury reports (like me) I can spit you back info on who has had how many injuries, when, what they were, how serious they were, and whether the rate or pattern dictates a review or an investigation. Resources are way too scattered in the community for that to occur.

At the same time, I think it's worth the cost to go community. Now if someone could just convince our funding agencies that this is the way to go . . .

i've read through the comments on this particular picture and i've taken a good portion of time out of my day to do so.
and i think taking years to proove something in this argument is ridiculous.
obviously, if nothing has been solved by now, it never will be.
let the ignorant remain in "bliss".

this is artwork.
let people interpret it as they'd like.

I would suggest that rather than "taking a good portion of time out of your day" to read all these dreary comments it might be easier to hit the "Hide Comments" button. Some of us are looking beyond the art and into the reality that the art reflects, although by your comments I see that you don't seem to "approve" of it. The fact that this "artwork" is the product of a universe that was real is probably uncomfortable for a lot of people, and is one of the reasons the "Hide Comments" option was installed.

None of us have the ability to "give others permission to interpret things as they like" - but it's always better to give people some objective reality if you happen to know something about it than it is to let people run off half-cocked with bizarre ideas from things they have never personally experienced but have just decided "must be." That isn't "art" - that is "drama pretending to be art that doesn't want to bother with reality because it might be uncomfortable."

Gotta love Lynne!

Hey, what about Ozzy? I've been on here since January 13, 2006. I became famous on this site with the famous slogan everybody loves.....DARKNES IS YOUR FRIEND. Remember there is only one Ozzy on opacity.

I totally agree with Lynne, that we are looking at what this art reflects. For those of us who have spent time with the mentally ill, it speaks deeply and reveals intricate, intimate things.

If you've never spent time with profoundly mentally ill or retarded people, I doubt you can truly connect to the abyss that often appears in their artwork. Standing on the outside of a hospital and looking at it is far different from being on the inside and looking out.

These kids were trapped and knew they were trapped. Every passage becomes a dark passage because you know that even if you escape, your playmates and friends won't. This picture encapsulates everything Pennhurst couldn't achieve.

Someone - shoot me now. :-)

Funny how this particular picture, which we know for certain was drawn by staff, inspires people who know nothing about the world of DD to write in and make comments showing their own bizarre yet naive conceptions about how other peoples' lives are or were.

I'm thinking something or someone needs to be taken with a grain of salt. ;-)

Bad psychopharmacological pun - sorry.

Ask selfadvocates how they feel about institutions. You will discover as I did that they wand nothing to do with them. Read the abuses that cccurred at Pennhurst and you will understand why!

I do not understand why people continue to deny abuses that occurred at Pennhurst.. They were proved to be true in court.. Read the documents they are available to the public.

I know this picture has many, many comments but I don't think anyone has ever denied that there was some abuse at Pennhurst through the years. The degree of abuse is up for debate I'm sure. And many horror stories passed on by people who may or not worked there always adds fuel to the fire. So what is your point exactly?

[Psssstttt!!!!! Marcia!!!!! Should we tell anyone? ;-) ]

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/03/07/neither-black-nor-white/

Oh Lynne...I think I love that guy. Sadly,I'm afraid, that may be too deep for some people to comprehend though.

I normally wouldn't do this but this link will hopefully show people another shade painting from another class that apparently had a very positive experience judging from their painting. #10
http://www.elpeecho.co.../viewtopic.php?t=412

; )

Read through the whole thread ... fascinating. Both because of all the conflicting information that, point for counterpoint, adds one piece of the puzzle after another, and because of the dynamics of the interplay.

Poster after poster comes in to speculate about the darkest horrors this picture must surely betray. For people who know more about the actual specifics of the background, that must be immensely frustrating. It's so easy to conjure up pictures of nothing but brutal sadists for those who've never experienced the situation first hand.

And yes, there is something disturbing in the adrenalin rush with which people seem to crowd upon any scene of horror and outrage, almost eagerly evoking the possible scenes, before passing on again.

Neverending speculation about an unending hell of abuse must also be deeply offensive who toil in this line of work. They work in the hardest of all jobs, are expected to give their all for lousy wages, and feel that their whole profession is still maligned as some collective of abusers as soon as one out of their many is revealed as one.

On the other hand, there is a lot of knee-jerk responses too. The more defensive posters seem to bristle at pretty much *any* mention of the abuses that went on. They're not denying they happened, for sure, but instinctively lashing out at anyone bringing them up - even reasonable posters.

Seen a number of posters explicitly state that they're sure that there were many good people working there too, before referring to the gruesome things that happened, and all getting the verbal slap round the ear anyway.

You just dont seem to hear what the other is saying anymore. Thats most obviously true for the judgemental passers by, who are all hit-and-run posters anyway, but also for the other side.

Alliecat points out that of course people are not going to go solely on the word of someone who worked there either, just because that view is by definition biased - which is just common sense - but she explicitly says that she's not calling the other poster a liar? She still gets the 'how dare she call me a liar' response anyway. Someone mentions the memoirs of a former resident? Oh well, quote: "he is retarded right? Maybe he was influenced". Not the slightest interest in what the guy, who turns out to have become a prominent disability self-advocate, had to say or who he was; the knee-jerk instinct to dismiss out of hand is firmly in check. Lots of circling the wagons going on in this thread.

But I didnt start writing just to diss people. Guess I just got frustrated. Bottom line is that everyone on this thread cares. Even the passers by with their speculations still stop by with a real measure of genuine pity and concern, which is more than you could have said fourty or fifty years ago. And even the sharpest knee-jerk responses came from people who did spend years doing this amazing and gigantic work, something someone like me sure cant match up with.

And all the to and for aside, Lynne's point that people love to point the finger at the caregivers as some kind of monsters, but at the same time stubbornly vote down the taxes needed to fund better care is a good one. Everyone likes a person to blame; acknowledging the systemic flaw that we're all co-responsible for is another matter. The numbered points in her post of 04-01-2006 are ace. If that's a rant, ranting is good.

But mostly, after going through the whole to and fro with people increasingly unable to hear what the other is really saying, I wanted to thank Witness and BigEd (and Jamara and William) for trying to walk the line in between. Going beyond easy-chair judgement and knee-jerk defense. That was much needed. Thank you very much.

Eh, what am I doing? I'm not contributing anything here. I'm just another poster rambling. I guess I just needed to synthesize my thoughts after reading all of yours. OK, done. Another hit-and-run poster heard from -- but also another one touched, for what it's worth..

The important point is that terrable abuses did occure and must never be aloud to happen again!

WOOOW! It took me forever to read all of that! Very interesting!!

I realize I'm jumping into this a little late but I'm finding the conversation here fascinating- not as fascinating as I do Mr. Motts artwork but still....
Can we all agree that being mentally ill sucks? Sucked 50 years ago, sucks now. Sucks for the patient, sucks for the family, sucks for the caregiver, just sucks. There have been horrid methods used to treat and control mental illness. There have been horrid methods used to treat TB, cancer, you name it. We look at some of these things now and think "How could they?" Maybe 50 years from now (or less hopefully) we'll look at chemo or dialysis or prozac the same way. Think about the situation you have a bunch of people cruising around that are in this facility for mental illness, a mental illness that could leave them not understanding the harm they could do to themselves, another patient, a staff member. What is the limited amount of staff supposed to do? Allow it to happen b/c, God forbid, we don't want to infringe on anyone's human rights by restaining them safely? Or should that person be restained until they're not a danger to themselves or others? There wasn't (and still isn't) enough funding to get the care that the mentally ill need. Not enough doctors, nurses, caregivers to sit there with a patient while physically restraining them from doing harm. Out of all the groups that could potentially do the most harm to themselves and society, we still in 2008, give less funding to the needs of the mentally ill than we do say, breast cancer. (Not that breast cancer isn't a worthy cause, just not as likely to cause someone to stab their neighbor to death less than a half hour after being released from a psych ward as we saw happen last week in my town) Thus we don't have the staff to help them as completely as they need, we don't have the housing to keep them safe during treatment so they're released before they've truly been helped, insurance certainly doesn't cover mental health as they do physical illness so....what is the answer? Did abuse occur? Yes. Did horrible mistreatment happen? yes. Does it continue today? Yes but less so due to checks and balances. Does abuse and mistreatment happen in your school, your office, your church, your nursing home, your daycare, your neighbor's house, your house? Yes. Its a rotten thing but true and the people committing these unspeakable acts need serious help too. Instead of bitching in CAPS about how we can never let this happen again, realize that the way to prevent it is to raise awareness and funds.
Now, I will be turning the soapbox back over to Lynne and resume enjoying Mr. Motts lovely photos.... Thank you for your time.

what the hell?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz.......

i think ppl should stop arguiing with marcia because she has been fighting anyone who said this place was bad for years now

I think everyone agrees that large institutions are not desirable. However, one thing they have/had "going for them" was an economy of scale. The individuals with developmental disabilities whose needs could be met at lower cost in the community were discharged from institutions 20-30 years ago (if they were ever in institutions at all). The individuals in institutions today or who have been discharged in the last 12 or so years have multiple serious problems--the mental retardation itself, inability to walk, lack of intelligible communication, often orthopedic complications, feeding difficulties, various medical problems, seizures--and very intense needs. Ten years ago I worked on setting up community placements for the last 12 people who were still institutionalized from my agency's region of the state. The usual cost of their community placements was above $12,000 per person per month, well over twice the cost of their care in the institution. Community homes are cheaper in the aggregate, but not necessarily in any particular individual case. Some services also became much harder to access. The institution had a dentist who was used to working with these patients. It was very difficult to find a local dentist (the community placements were of necessity two hours away from the institution because the closure agreement specified that each person be returned to his/her "home" community) willing to take the time necessary to treat them.

Almost all of the mechanical restraints I have seen used have been used to protect individuals from their own self-injurious behaviors. I have seen people pick at sores until bone is visible. Or an eye or lip destroyed. Or head-banging until stitches are needed because what the person seeks is the attention given in a hospital emergency room.

Two aspects of moving these residents to the community were especially hard. One was reassuring the staff at the institution that we would provide the same loving, considerate care they had provided for the thirty or forty years the person had been with them. I know abuses happened, but I don't think abusive staff were the ones insisting on coming to the new home with the person to make sure it was everything we had promised in the discharge planning meetings, and who made videos for us showing how they handled mealtimes, baths, transfers, and all the other little aspects of the person's day, as well as making sure we knew favorite foods, favorite music, etc.

The other especially hard thing was the families of the individuals. Forty years ago we**the "experts"**had told them that the right thing to do was to place their child in the institution, because they would get special care by people who knew how to help them, it was best for everyone, etc. Now we were coming back to them, after they had either finally made some kind of peace with that placement or were still agonizing with guilt over it, and telling them, no, the institution isn't the right place, we were wrong. It was the only home most of them had ever known, they were with staff who had been there for years in a small town where they were part of the community, but the LAW said they had to leave there and come live among strangers who didn't know them. And yes, we had been wrong before, but this time, the families were supposed to trust that we really DID know, and that this would be better. For some, probably most, families, it was. For others, I'm not so sure.

And I thought I was one of just a select crazy few who are crazy enough to read all this information on Pennhurst throughout all these different sites, while the same people have been commenting on this picture for over two years!

I don't think most ppl who are posting are trying to accuse anyone now days of abuse. I think they are responding to emotion that these wonderful pics Motts has taken. I think that everyone has agreed that abuse has occured and, sadly, will continue to occur most likely due to human nature. It is a cruel world we live in and it is always bettered by the caring ppl that HAVE actually worked in the MH field. That being said, yes, there could possibly be sensational journalism at work, yes there could be influencing of the sort going on, and no, no one said it was the RULE, and not an exception. When ppl read the websites posted here, (the autobiography, the interviews, etc.) it draws a lot of emotion, and I don't think it is meant to attack anyone. it's just hard to grasp, and try to keep from jumping to conclusions. I do not think it is wrong for ppl to form opinions about WHAT WENT ON AT PENNHURST. That is the real argument that everyone has lost sight of. Not whether all the healthcare workers in the MH field are sadistic. Abuse has been documented, yes it is sad, ppl need to do something about it, and a loud standing ovation needs to be given to ppl like Lynne and others who have chosen to help these people.
"On the other hand, there is a lot of knee-jerk responses too. The more defensive posters seem to bristle at pretty much *any* mention of the abuses that went on. They're not denying they happened, for sure, but instinctively lashing out at anyone bringing them up - even reasonable posters.

Seen a number of posters explicitly state that they're sure that there were many good people working there too, before referring to the gruesome things that happened, and all getting the verbal slap round the ear anyway.

You just dont seem to hear what the other is saying anymore. Thats most obviously true for the judgemental passers by, who are all hit-and-run posters anyway, but also for the other side."
Joost, I could not have said it ANY better!!! Thank u!!
BTW, I could safely say that I am new at this site, but u can look at the other locales and see I am not ur average "hit and run' poster.

the only letter in there that is not capitalized is the b

As an artist I don't give a crud about the history behind this image and am taking it as a piece of art in a wonderfully creepy series of artistic images. All your images create a great sense of atmosphere and I am absolutely drawn in. Bravo.

WTF!? this! this! is the creepists picture i have EVER seen in my life!!!!! EVER!!!!! nightmares.....such nightmares!

It's very scary that the sheep are named, isn't it?

what type of sadistic child draws a picture of a alligator eating a deer

hmmm... give a a minute to ponder this. b:

Looks like one of those pictures that are meant to brain wash the patient? Not in an illusion type way but more of a symbolic way. It seems that it's saying that the children are out casts and don't belong in OUR world which is why they are black sheep. The crocodiles I think are supposed to represent those of the perfectly fine minds of whom look down apawn them and how they treat them cruel which is why we see one bighting a lamb on the leg. The rainbow, which the lambs are climbing, must represent the sanctuary of the hospital away from the big bad world.

Basically what this picture says is: "You don't belong in the out side world because you are different and you're only choice is to suffer hear." =/

Got my lingo?

Where's the cowboy? I like cowboys leading lambs on a cattle drive...

Ok, I don't scary easy, but this pic scare the hell out of me! I see black sheep trying to get over the rainbow and one of them have my name on it!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I'm sure I remember my childhood, I've never lived in PA. But this looks like something I would paint/color.

ok ....i know horseshit when i see it, this is faked by some visitor,and left for others to find. colors are to bright for a 20 yr old pic. But these pictures are really cool,

I feel that they mean the lambs are the children and they are going up to heaven. They are the little lambs of God. The two at the bottom I think that who ever colored this is saying the two are mean and they stay there in the pit of hell or penn hurst. If you notice they are traveling up the side of the rainbow. That is just how I feel.

Sigh....rolling eyes for the hundreth time...

woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow thats... creapy, disturbing, wierd, and i forgot to say SCARY AS HELL

heheh, Marcia, your group thought the class was a pit of insane boredom, but somebody put oblivion instead?

I see the pit as the hopital itself. The aligators were maybe the staff and the rainbow was the tunnel to the admin. building. Showing that they were happy to see there parents. I think the child who drew this saw the other children leave (writing their names on the sheep) and showing them over the rainbow. And those at the bottom were those that their parents didn't come, thus being dragged back into the "safe rooms" becasue they were becoming violent to themselves and to others.

I love this pictures, my freind showed me one and now I can't stop lookinga them. I'm very much into photography. I go to school on an old army base. There is a bunch of old buildings that I wish to get into, but they are padlocked, but i can still get some very cool shots from the outside!

I would pay $10,000.00 for that picture. seriously!

wow. just from the way marcie talks you can almost tell wat kind of nurse she was or is. she called the patients retards in a post way earlier. who really tries to convince people that these places were ok places when this wasnt the only place being shut down. but every hospital was shut down for its good production, sterile enviroments, and good hospitality right? aka your the one ever to say "it wasnt that bad".

k. so your not the only to say it was an o.k place. alot of the others were just visitors and maybe didnt see behind the 1st buildin. but still people. im not all godly but you ever think these people try to change our views hoping it will change the "THE BIG MANS" view alittle for when they see the light because they werent the best of people themselves while they were there.

im not saying everyone who worked there was like this. not at all!! but when people talk i tend to listen. and can normaly find the bad apples just from the way they speak. thats my interrogation skills kicking in!

and alot of what was said in this convo. is whats going on now and how people are working and dealing with the patients. and how itss a hard job. not taking none of that from you! but how people thought back then isnt how people think now! and i have a random ?. how many mean old ladies do you know that used to be nurses. i know of alot thats why im asking!!

Ok, I just got done reading all of these posts. I must say that everyone needs to calm down. Some people think Pennhurst was a terrible place, others think not. My opinion does not matter at this point. These pictures were taken many years after the hospital shut down. Obviously this is not exactly what it looked like when it was up and running. No one can prove what happened in that place unless you were there for yourselves. People lie, and some stretch the truth. Get over it. Quit fighting. You believe in one thing, so believe and let the other people think what they want. And if you once worked there, you know the truth, weather you admit it on here or not, you know deep down inside what truly happened, good or bad.

Ok, I just got done reading all of these posts. I must say that everyone needs to calm down. Some people think Pennhurst was a terrible place, others think not. My opinion does not matter at this point. These pictures were taken many years after the hospital shut down. Obviously this is not exactly what it looked like when it was up and running. No one can prove what happened in that place unless you were there for yourselves. People lie, and some stretch the truth. Get over it. Quit fighting. You believe in one thing, so believe and let the other people think what they want. And if you once worked there, you know the truth, weather you admit it on here or not, you know deep down inside what truly happened, good or bad.

All I'm going to say is that this is pretty well drawn. I don't think a disabled child could draw this well, not trying to say they weren't capable of such a simple thing as doodling but for the most part even normal children can't draw this well. This looks like something an adult drew and colored, also noticing there's no "coloring outside the lines." The handwriting that names the sheep look like an adult's.

they drew some dark humor,and they pry have had an arch rival there.. X)

Extremely haunting and erie.

Dropped in to see what crazy theories people are coming up with. Always good for a laugh now and them. Just one thing Urbanlegend, I never called anyone a "retard" ...Moron yes and if the shoe fits......and I was never a nurse, just a lowly aide.

Wow just....wow ok I feel I need to put my own word in,as a former patient of a mental facility. It is like any other work place you have-lazy asses,gossips,people who dont give a damn,people who reaally dont want to be there,and people who skip on their duties.However you also have-Kind caring people,people who enjoy and love their jobs,hard works,friendly people,people who do the best they can and try their hardest to make these places as close to a home as possible.

You really need to stop and think about this before pointing fingers.When you lump together the good and the bad you sully the name of those who were only trying to do their best. If it werent for some of these good people I myselfs would probly not be writing this. And as for the bad that was said to go on in Penhurst,everyone has their breaking points we are only human,and being under paid and staffed is never any help,people get overwhelmed it doesnt make it their fault.

What I find truly sad is when places ment to heal and help fall apart at the seams. Usually at no fault of their own.

Well these are just my thoughts take them as you will,I hope they give some of you pause and make you think.

Do you people EVER get tired of standing on soapboxes?? Jeez!!! By the way, Mott, great pics. Very poignant, no matter WHAT happened at Pennhurst.

Heaven and hell depiction? Reminds me of the dutch artist ( though crudely) Heironymous Bosch

How old is this art work, why is the paper still white and not yellowed?

best drawing ever.

i am suprised one picture has taken on a rant longer than the gettysburg address the declaration of independence and possibly war and peace this is the longest dialogue ive ever read

woah it took me 15 seconds to the bottom of the page!!! I WOULD LIKE TO VISIT THIS PLACE NOW MOTTS!!!!!!!!

Emotions are really high in these comments. Usually, when i comment on this website i only comment about the stuff which triggers my ptsd and my emotions are dominating my thoughts.

Today I am a health care advocate. I work in nursing facilities. I work with a great guy who was in a state institution for people with intellectual disabilities for decades. He's been living in his own apartment for a few decades and has had an incredibly valuable and fulfilling life since. I am so glad it wasn't wasted.

The other day we were talking to a women about the conditions she is subjected in the nursing facility she told us she was scared of the nursing aid who "cared" for her in the morning. For example, she threatened to drop her on the floor and break her head if she didn't stop complaining. My coworker told her with lots of compassion that he knew, because he had been there many times. She was afraid to report because of the repercussions, but agreed to talk to state ombudsman about her options and the protections he could provide. When I talked to the ombudsman a few weeks later he told me he had gone to visit her only to learn that she had reported the nurse to the facility administration who had fired the abusive aid. That took so much strength. I think it was the compassion of my friend that sparked it in her.

I worked in a state hospital in NH briefly in high school. There were a few good staff and most were average and grumpy with no training. Just dumb trainings that made no sense to them. The day staff never saw the night staff except at shift change. In my experience in psychiatric hospitals when the staff are alone with you some of them are abusive. Well, there goes my ptsd. Anyway, some people are blind to the abusive ways of their coworkers either because they look the other way on purpose or they are in another room and don't see it. A lot of people might think the way they treat others is appropriate behavior modification when it is experienced as abusive. When people have been institutionalized and leave the institution with the proper supports they prosper. Plus it is a hell of a lot cheaper for society. Its a good thing.

Maybe some of the state workers on this site developed ptsd from secondary trauma they experienced at work. Maybe that is a reason for the high emotion and defensiveness on this thread and in some of the comments I have made myself and why this argument has been going on for years. When you have trauma it is hard to let it go and you keep revisiting it no matter how upset it makes you. The more I read the anger on this thread more compassion I feel for the staff because I feel for sure the conditions were traumatizing. I am really glad I found this
website.

The simple fact is, as I explained before, that this was made by staff, after completing a mandatory class, to supposedly help US cope with the bad press, lawsuits, planted undercover aides, etc, etc, etc. Morale was pretty low. However the majority of us hated the BS they were trying to shove down our throats and retaliated with a not so warm and fuzzy window shade. Our way of saying FU. Why people continue to make up their own scenerios is beyond me.

this scares me.